Outdoor Dining Table

[Bushwacked]

40 minutes ago, Kev said:

That's a wide BB but, not undoable..  There's a few things to think through when determining how big the tenon needs to be.  The biggest thing to think about is the depth of the mortise.  If you decide to make them 3", do you have the tooling to reach that depth?  I think that would be pushing my limits pretty good.  Now, at 6" BBs with 2" M&T, those are numbers I could comfortably hit.

I don't know that there's any magic formula to it to be honest.

Another option would be the large domino as well.  Keeping a pair of center dominos on the tight setting and all the outside ones on the loose setting would work perfectly.  Of course, not everyone has this tool in their arsenal..

 

hah! yep I have no idea what I am doing with them 🙂 I guess if I do not use my domino, then I might need to rethink how big the ends need to be ... For the domino, would I glue everything like normal though with the tight setting on the middle and loose on the outside? or what?

[Bushwacked]

something like this? 

 

[Coop]

I’ve made a few in the past and will be making them in my current project. As a refresher, I took a look at several on YouTube and found this one by Marc. Stumpy Nubs also has one that I can’t locate right now with one eye ( had surgery on the other one yesterday).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TFn7JZmyFqk

 

[Bushwacked]

28 minutes ago, Coop said:

I’ve made a few in the past and will be making them in my current project. As a refresher, I took a look at several on YouTube and found this one by Marc. Stumpy Nubs also has one that I can’t locate right now with one eye ( had surgery on the other one yesterday).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TFn7JZmyFqk

 

hmmm he says its best to go into the breadboard about 1/2 to 2/3's the width ... that would be a really deep mortise if I used the 7" breadboards haha. I guess I could dry a drill press and chisel though?? Would hate to screw that up somehow doing it that way.

Would smaller breadboards, like 3-4" or so look funny on a 9' table? The main table would have about 7 1/2 - 7 3/4 boards for that ... will know once I mill them but they all look mainly good and are all about 8" wide. 

If they would look goofy, does this table even need them? Maybe C channel would be a better approach? or since it is vertical grain doug fir, it wont be moving too crazy since all the grain is the same and just a normal put together table would work?

[Coop]

I’m an expert by no means but I think anything over 5” would be hard to achieve at those ratios. Granted, a 2” wide bb would look a bit strange on a table that long but 4” would look good IMO. Also, keep in mind that the table could be moved by picking it up from the ends so you want as much tenon length support as possible. As Kev stated, milling tight mortises that deep will be a task. The longest I have made was on a blanket chest, a project on the WW guild. Because I didn’t want the top to shrink to less than the length of the bb, I made the bb intentionally proud of the top by a 1/4” or so on each end. A pic prob explains this better.

[Woodenskye (Bryan)]

2 hours ago, Bushwacked said:

hmmm he says its best to go into the breadboard about 1/2 to 2/3's the width ... that would be a really deep mortise if I used the 7" breadboards haha. I guess I could dry a drill press and chisel though?? Would hate to screw that up somehow doing it that way.

Would smaller breadboards, like 3-4" or so look funny on a 9' table? The main table would have about 7 1/2 - 7 3/4 boards for that ... will know once I mill them but they all look mainly good and are all about 8" wide. 

If they would look goofy, does this table even need them? Maybe C channel would be a better approach? or since it is vertical grain doug fir, it wont be moving too crazy since all the grain is the same and just a normal put together table would work?

3-4” would be fine, if you wanted to go 5” fine but that starts to be a PITA doing that much chisel work.  I am not sure how thick your top is going to be, but I always wondered if you could use dowels, if no domino xl for the BB ends.  In the middle you do a 3/8 dowel into a 3/8” hole. Then on the outside you do a little larger hole (1/2” or 5/8”).  If this actually worked, then you could do a larger BB end, cause you should be able to find a bit that could drill deep enough and not have the chiseling of the mortise.

[Kev]

12 hours ago, Bushwacked said:

hah! yep I have no idea what I am doing with them 🙂 I guess if I do not use my domino, then I might need to rethink how big the ends need to be ... For the domino, would I glue everything like normal though with the tight setting on the middle and loose on the outside? or what?

You could get away with the width you're looking at with the Domino XL but, not the 500.  I believe rethinking the size of your BBs is the way to go regardless.

 

10 hours ago, Bushwacked said:

hmmm he says its best to go into the breadboard about 1/2 to 2/3's the width ... that would be a really deep mortise if I used the 7" breadboards haha. I guess I could dry a drill press and chisel though?? Would hate to screw that up somehow doing it that way.

Would smaller breadboards, like 3-4" or so look funny on a 9' table? The main table would have about 7 1/2 - 7 3/4 boards for that ... will know once I mill them but they all look mainly good and are all about 8" wide. 

If they would look goofy, does this table even need them? Maybe C channel would be a better approach? or since it is vertical grain doug fir, it wont be moving too crazy since all the grain is the same and just a normal put together table would work?

I don't think the smaller breadboards would look "funny" at all.  Perhaps some image searches would confirm that.  I also think the C channel is a viable option is you don't like the look of the smaller BBs.

Do you need them?  Maybe, they do serve a purpose.  Often times with DF, the dry times are hurried so the MC is a bit higher than normal hard wood lumber.  I really think DF is more prone to twisting and cupping than standard hard woods.

7 hours ago, Woodenskye (Bryan) said:

3-4” would be fine, if you wanted to go 5” fine but that starts to be a PITA doing that much chisel work.  I am not sure how thick your top is going to be, but I always wondered if you could use dowels, if no domino xl for the BB ends.  In the middle you do a 3/8 dowel into a 3/8” hole. Then on the outside you do a little larger hole (1/2” or 5/8”).  If this actually worked, then you could do a larger BB end, cause you should be able to find a bit that could drill deep enough and not have the chiseling of the mortise.

I think the dowels could work.  The difficult part would be the pins, your holes would have to be spot on.  I would also be a little concerned about the strength of the dowels at the pinning point.  I'm also not sure that not pinning them would be an option?

[Woodenskye (Bryan)]

6 hours ago, Kev said:

You could get away with the width you're looking at with the Domino XL but, not the 500.  I believe rethinking the size of your BBs is the way to go regardless.

 

I don't think the smaller breadboards would look "funny" at all.  Perhaps some image searches would confirm that.  I also think the C channel is a viable option is you don't like the look of the smaller BBs.

Do you need them?  Maybe, they do serve a purpose.  Often times with DF, the dry times are hurried so the MC is a bit higher than normal hard wood lumber.  I really think DF is more prone to twisting and cupping than standard hard woods.

I think the dowels could work.  The difficult part would be the pins, your holes would have to be spot on.  I would also be a little concerned about the strength of the dowels at the pinning point.  I'm also not sure that not pinning them would be an option?

I have never seen it done with dowels, that’s why I’m not sure it would work. You may need extra, but you bring up a really good point about pinning them.  However I have to think if you drilled carefully and with a small enough bit as to not drill the dowel in half it might work.  Could be an interesting experiment.  

[Bushwacked]

started to mill today, found out 9' boards suck to run on a joiner without support, so I bought 2 Bora support rollers that will be here Saturday and I can continue. 

 

  

16 hours ago, Woodenskye (Bryan) said:

3-4” would be fine, if you wanted to go 5” fine but that starts to be a PITA doing that much chisel work.  I am not sure how thick your top is going to be, but I always wondered if you could use dowels, if no domino xl for the BB ends.  In the middle you do a 3/8 dowel into a 3/8” hole. Then on the outside you do a little larger hole (1/2” or 5/8”).  If this actually worked, then you could do a larger BB end, cause you should be able to find a bit that could drill deep enough and not have the chiseling of the mortise.

the top will be as close to 8/4 thick as I can get it ... looking at pictures, I guess yall are right, smaller BB's isnt a bad thing. I always just thought they were roughly the same widths as the main piece to keep symmetry and stuff. 

8 hours ago, Kev said:

You could get away with the width you're looking at with the Domino XL but, not the 500.  I believe rethinking the size of your BBs is the way to go regardless.

 

I don't think the smaller breadboards would look "funny" at all.  Perhaps some image searches would confirm that.  I also think the C channel is a viable option is you don't like the look of the smaller BBs.

Do you need them?  Maybe, they do serve a purpose.  Often times with DF, the dry times are hurried so the MC is a bit higher than normal hard wood lumber.  I really think DF is more prone to twisting and cupping than standard hard woods.

I think the dowels could work.  The difficult part would be the pins, your holes would have to be spot on.  I would also be a little concerned about the strength of the dowels at the pinning point.  I'm also not sure that not pinning them would be an option?

You are right ... BB's dont look terrible being smaller. I just had some vision in my mind that wasnt correct haha. 

So, now that I got over that mental hurdle of massive BB's, what size should I be looking at for a 9' table? would it be 4" or what? 4" seems like a happy medium ... thoughts?

[Kev]

1 hour ago, Bushwacked said:

So, now that I got over that mental hurdle of massive BB's, what size should I be looking at for a 9' table? would it be 4" or what? 4" seems like a happy medium ... thoughts?

I thing that @Woodenskye (Bryan) was pretty spot on with 4 to 5"

4 hours ago, Woodenskye (Bryan) said:

I have never seen it done with dowels, that’s why I’m not sure it would work. You may need extra, but you bring up a really good point about pinning them.  However I have to think if you drilled carefully and with a small enough bit as to not drill the dowel in half it might work.  Could be an interesting experiment.  

It can be done for sure.  I think you'd have to use large dowels and small pins though to leave enough meat in the joint.

[Coop]

It probably goes without saying but I treat the mortises and tenons on the bb and table top just like any other. Cut the mortises first, dead center and then cut the tenons to fit.

[Bushwacked]

11 hours ago, Coop said:

It probably goes without saying but I treat the mortises and tenons on the bb and table top just like any other. Cut the mortises first, dead center and then cut the tenons to fit.

thanks for that ... first time doing any M&T work haha 

[Bushwacked]

So the stands showed up at like 4pm yesterday and it was 106* so I didn’t feel like doing anything but getting them setup and ready for today or tomorrow when I get time to get out there. 
 

 

it’s a nice tight squeeze for sure haha. Although the Bora stands were easy to put together and the roller seems to work well. I guess we will see soon how helpful they are…

[Coop]

That’s some pretty clear looking lumber. Nice score. What did that set you back per bf? 

[Bushwacked]

11 hours ago, Coop said:

That’s some pretty clear looking lumber. Nice score. What did that set you back per bf? 

So far seems very clear! 
 

[Bushwacked]

@Kevyour moisture comment above got me thinking … no clue if I’m doing it right but it’s about 1/8” jammed into the end grain and held there for like 30 seconds. The others were around the same too. Maybe my supplier doesn’t buy the rushed stuff?  

 

also first whoopsy not paying attention. Wondered why so much Doug fir was outside hahaha 🤣 

 

also today that little fella fell out again. At least this time when it started happening I knew what it was and took about 5 mins to fix  

[Kev]

You would expect it to be the driest on the end grain as that's where most of the moisture escapes.  When you rough cut one to length, check the cut end the same way and see what you get..  3% is really low BTW..

[Bushwacked]

13 hours ago, Kev said:

You would expect it to be the driest on the end grain as that's where most of the moisture escapes.  When you rough cut one to length, check the cut end the same way and see what you get..  3% is really low BTW..

Ok I’ll do that .. should have things milled up tomorrow I think. I’ll take a few more readings then. 
 

like good low or so low meter is broke haha

[Jamie]

If you go look back a couple years at the dining room table I built with bb ends you will see some mistakes I made and will maybe help you avoid them.  

[Coop]

BW, can you peen the key or add a drop of epoxy to keep it in place? 

[Kev]

10 hours ago, Bushwacked said:

like good low or so low meter is broke haha

I wouldn't say the meter is broke, it's just not an accurate reading relative to the rest of the lumber.

Pin style meters like this (I have one as well) aren't the most accurate but, that's actually irrelevant.  Find a piece of lumber in your shop that's been there for a good long time and check the moisture on that.  Then, check your new lumber exactly the same way you checked the "known" lumber from your shop.  You're looking for a difference on the meter.  It doesn't really matter what the number is.  You want the lumber you bring into your shop to be ~ the same as your "known" lumber.

These numbers are your to be different all over the country.  It won't take you long to figure out where lumber coming into your shop should be.  When I was in WA, I was looking for 11% on my meter.  In MT, I'm looking for 7%.  When I see those numbers, that's when I know the lumber is ready to go.

Now, normal hardwoods coming from a local dealer don't usually cause any issues and I rarely check them.  If I get lumber from a local mill or other unknown source, I'm checking them for sure.  In your case, you've got lumber that's usually used for construction so, may not have gone through the proper drying process which could bite you in the butt after the project is built.

Hope that helps and I explained it well..  Just getting off of work and I'm tired. 🤪

[Bushwacked]

On 7/12/2022 at 6:24 AM, Kev said:

I wouldn't say the meter is broke, it's just not an accurate reading relative to the rest of the lumber.

Pin style meters like this (I have one as well) aren't the most accurate but, that's actually irrelevant.  Find a piece of lumber in your shop that's been there for a good long time and check the moisture on that.  Then, check your new lumber exactly the same way you checked the "known" lumber from your shop.  You're looking for a difference on the meter.  It doesn't really matter what the number is.  You want the lumber you bring into your shop to be ~ the same as your "known" lumber.

These numbers are your to be different all over the country.  It won't take you long to figure out where lumber coming into your shop should be.  When I was in WA, I was looking for 11% on my meter.  In MT, I'm looking for 7%.  When I see those numbers, that's when I know the lumber is ready to go.

Now, normal hardwoods coming from a local dealer don't usually cause any issues and I rarely check them.  If I get lumber from a local mill or other unknown source, I'm checking them for sure.  In your case, you've got lumber that's usually used for construction so, may not have gone through the proper drying process which could bite you in the butt after the project is built.

Hope that helps and I explained it well..  Just getting off of work and I'm tired. 🤪

does the older lumber I am checking need a fresh cut/plane or anything or can I just jab it? If I can just jab it ... the older stuff was reading 0-1%. I feel this meter is a POS haha 

[Kev]

59 minutes ago, Bushwacked said:

does the older lumber I am checking need a fresh cut/plane or anything or can I just jab it? If I can just jab it ... the older stuff was reading 0-1%. I feel this meter is a POS haha 

The older lumber check location shouldn't really matter.  It should have reached its equilibrium for your shop.  In theory, if you cut the wood you should see the same number.

Again, this doesn't mean that the meter is broke, it's just not accurate to what the actual reading is.  But, that's irrelevant.  If that meter is reading 1% then that becomes the number you're looking for in your shop on that meter.  That will tell you when lumber in your shop has reached equilibrium for your shop.

Pretty sure we could all agree that your lumber isn't actually at 1%.  That's an inaccuracy from your meter but, it doesn't matter what the number is.  What you care about is that all the lumber in your shop hits that number on that meter checked in a similar location.

Turners do this by weighing their projects.  They do a rough turning when the wood is green.  From there, they weigh the piece regularly and when the rough turning stops loosing weight, they know that the moisture content has stabilized and the piece is ready for its final turning.  They don't care what the actual moisture content is.  They care that it's at equilibrium for their shop.

[Bushwacked]

makes sense .. and yes 1% is crazy haha

Thanks for the info though .. I guess I will be letting would hit that 1-2% mark from now on. 

[Coop]

Another way to use a pin meter is to drill two small holes the size of a finishing nail, halfway down into the board, spaced the same distance as your pins. Tap the nails into the holes and touch your meter pins to these nails.