Outdoor Dining Table

[Bushwacked]

Sorry I have been absent for several months but life got busy and me trying to start a new business after being laid off has been a time sink for sure. I am getting coming up for some air and have slowed down to a somewhat manageable pace so I should be back around more regularly.

So, the wife is finally getting her wish of an outdoor kitchen (my wish) dining/hang out area (hers) and we all know what that means, more work for me lol.

With this, I will be building the dining table and some other side tables and stuff to go around everything. For now, it will be kicked off with this build, which I should be able to start on once I get the plans back from the company doing the work. We have the 3d rendering of it overall, but I didnt get my floor plan yet. So it is roughly dimensioned 96x42 so its gonna be a big boy when its all said and done ... Here is my first initial take on what I am thinking for the build ...

 

 

 

A few of my starting questions though I need help thinking through ...

1) Wood type? I was thinking Cedar, as the ceiling will be cedar and might look good to tie into that. Was also thinking flatsawn Sapele and not riftsawn/quartersawn I think the racing stripes might be too much for this table haha. Also tossing out the idea of just mahogany as well. Really struggling with what type of look for it.

2) Since it is outside, I am planning on putting a layer of epoxy on all the leg bottoms, then tossing some leveling feet on there. Does that sound like a good idea? Not sure on what kind of leveling feet yet, have not even started looking. Assuming they have some basic ones that are not too hard to mess with.

3) The total height of the table is 31" I think that should be good? I need to go look at some outdoor dining chairs and get an idea of their height once sitting in them. Then finalize the height of the table. 

4) Table top ... I was thinking doing slats, but this "should" not really be in the elements as it will be under a roof. So I was thinking a solid top should be fine and rain would not be hitting it just laying on top. Plus, it would be easier to keep clean as well. Any reason to consider a slat top?

 

 

Anything else in the video you see or thoughts on things I could add/try to the table? For the most part, it is a pretty basic build, just big. Main goal was just to make sure it wasnt "blocky" looking and that is why I have some of those subtle additions on the top and the aprons. 

[Kev]

15 minutes ago, Bushwacked said:

Sorry I have been absent for several months but life got busy and me trying to start a new business after being laid off has been a time sink for sure. I am getting coming up for some air and have slowed down to a somewhat manageable pace so I should be back around more regularly.

So, the wife is finally getting her wish of an outdoor kitchen (my wish) dining/hang out area (hers) and we all know what that means, more work for me lol.

With this, I will be building the dining table and some other side tables and stuff to go around everything. For now, it will be kicked off with this build, which I should be able to start on once I get the plans back from the company doing the work. We have the 3d rendering of it overall, but I didnt get my floor plan yet. So it is roughly dimensioned 96x42 so its gonna be a big boy when its all said and done ... Here is my first initial take on what I am thinking for the build ...

 

 

 

A few of my starting questions though I need help thinking through ...

1) Wood type? I was thinking Cedar, as the ceiling will be cedar and might look good to tie into that. Was also thinking flatsawn Sapele and not riftsawn/quartersawn I think the racing stripes might be too much for this table haha. Also tossing out the idea of just mahogany as well. Really struggling with what type of look for it.

2) Since it is outside, I am planning on putting a layer of epoxy on all the leg bottoms, then tossing some leveling feet on there. Does that sound like a good idea? Not sure on what kind of leveling feet yet, have not even started looking. Assuming they have some basic ones that are not too hard to mess with.

3) The total height of the table is 31" I think that should be good? I need to go look at some outdoor dining chairs and get an idea of their height once sitting in them. Then finalize the height of the table. 

4) Table top ... I was thinking doing slats, but this "should" not really be in the elements as it will be under a roof. So I was thinking a solid top should be fine and rain would not be hitting it just laying on top. Plus, it would be easier to keep clean as well. Any reason to consider a slat top?

 

 

Anything else in the video you see or thoughts on things I could add/try to the table? For the most part, it is a pretty basic build, just big. Main goal was just to make sure it wasnt "blocky" looking and that is why I have some of those subtle additions on the top and the aprons. 

Glad to see you back and to hear that things are looking up for you!

I'll toss my 2 for your questions...

1.  Even though it's covered, I think I would still select a species that does well outdoors.  Cedar does well outdoors but, it's also. really soft.  Perhaps Cypress or something in the harder species will hold up a bit better?

2.  Yes.  Since moisture will wick up the wood, I could take it a step further and bore out the hold for the feet oversize and then fill with epoxy.  That way when you actually drill for the feet, it's in epoxy and not the wood.  Ultimately, this will be stronger and more water resistant.

3.  My kitchen table is at 30" so, I think you're in the ballpark with height.  My caution here would be the chairs and your aprons.  It's annoying to sit at a table in chairs with arms that won't fit under the table because the arms hit the aprons.

4.  If you ever see this table getting wet, I would design some sort of drainage into it.  If it's not going to get wet then I wouldn't worry about it.  What I would consider with the top is a way to keep it flat especially since it's an outdoor table.  Either BB ends or some C Chanel on the underside to help prevent cupping.  I would also probably add additional support instead of just one in the middle.  

 

And lastly, a question..  What's the finish of choice going to be?

[Woodenskye (Bryan)]

Drew, good luck with the new venture!  As for species, you could also use white oak.  If I’m not mistaken isn’t mesquite fairly weather resistant?  Only mention since your in Texas.

[Bushwacked]

7 hours ago, Kev said:

Glad to see you back and to hear that things are looking up for you!

I'll toss my 2 for your questions...

1.  Even though it's covered, I think I would still select a species that does well outdoors.  Cedar does well outdoors but, it's also. really soft.  Perhaps Cypress or something in the harder species will hold up a bit better?

2.  Yes.  Since moisture will wick up the wood, I could take it a step further and bore out the hold for the feet oversize and then fill with epoxy.  That way when you actually drill for the feet, it's in epoxy and not the wood.  Ultimately, this will be stronger and more water resistant.

3.  My kitchen table is at 30" so, I think you're in the ballpark with height.  My caution here would be the chairs and your aprons.  It's annoying to sit at a table in chairs with arms that won't fit under the table because the arms hit the aprons.

4.  If you ever see this table getting wet, I would design some sort of drainage into it.  If it's not going to get wet then I wouldn't worry about it.  What I would consider with the top is a way to keep it flat especially since it's an outdoor table.  Either BB ends or some C Chanel on the underside to help prevent cupping.  I would also probably add additional support instead of just one in the middle.  

 

And lastly, a question..  What's the finish of choice going to be?

1) Ok, I will take a look at Cypress too and see.

2) That is a great idea!! I will have to use that once I get to the feet install

3) very true, this is why I was going on the higher end of table height to hopefully avoid that. The aprons start at 4" and then curve up to 3" .. should they be smaller than that? I didnt want to get much smaller, I just assumed it would look weird and not provide much help if they were like 2" or so. 

4) Do the BB ends and C channel provide about the same amount of support to help with cupping? OR is one better than the other?

  I updated the drawing ... so something like this for supports? They are all about 27" apart. 

 

Hah! Finish? ummmm have not got that far yet, but was thinking epiphanies since it would be outdoors with potential sun and weather ...

1 hour ago, Woodenskye (Bryan) said:

Drew, good luck with the new venture!  As for species, you could also use white oak.  If I’m not mistaken isn’t mesquite fairly weather resistant?  Only mention since your in Texas.

Appreciate it Bryan! White Oak eh? That didnt even cross my mind! Although "management" is not a fan of plain ol white oak and she would expect some type of stain on it. I would assume mesquite is weather resistant ... I mean you can kill the damn things haha 

[Kev]

10 minutes ago, Bushwacked said:

1) Ok, I will take a look at Cypress too and see.

2) That is a great idea!! I will have to use that once I get to the feet install

3) very true, this is why I was going on the higher end of table height to hopefully avoid that. The aprons start at 4" and then curve up to 3" .. should they be smaller than that? I didnt want to get much smaller, I just assumed it would look weird and not provide much help if they were like 2" or so. 

4) Do the BB ends and C channel provide about the same amount of support to help with cupping? OR is one better than the other?

  I updated the drawing ... so something like this for supports? They are all about 27" apart. 

 

Hah! Finish? ummmm have not got that far yet, but was thinking epiphanies since it would be outdoors with potential sun and weather ...

Appreciate it Bryan! White Oak eh? That didnt even cross my mind! Although "management" is not a fan of plain ol white oak and she would expect some type of stain on it. I would assume mesquite is weather resistant ... I mean you can kill the damn things haha 

4.  I don't honestly know if one method is any better than the other.  Just tossing out options to help keep it flat..

[Coop]

BW, I built two Adirondack chairs and a side table from cypress about 7 years ago and except for the ends of the feet, they have held up extremely well. I should have coated the feet ends with epoxy. These have been uncovered and outside under a tree since I built them. I am also replacing my purple Martin house with cypress ones as they get older. I think you would be happier with a solid top rather than having spaces between your boards. Easier to clean and refinish and a laminated solid top won’t allow individual boards to bow. As much as I like mesquite, it’s sold as exotics here in Houston and way out of my price range. Also long straight lumber is almost impossible to find. 

[Bushwacked]

The more and more I hear about and look at cypress pics, the more I like it... I think that may be the winner. I went and grabbed a cypress wood pic and added to my library in F360 to update the look ...

I think it looks pretty good in a lighter color.

Now looking at on of my suppliers, they only go up to 8/4 stock, I made the legs here 10/4 which would need 12/4 rough ... gotta do some shopping around and see if I can find it thicker.

 

Also, would this be the Epifanes I am looking for? I dont want the high gloss version and this seems to be their matte finish. That is the correct one for this right?

https://www.epifanes.com/page/wood-finish-matte 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Bushwacked

[Kev]

1 hour ago, Bushwacked said:

The more and more I hear about and look at cypress pics, the more I like it... I think that may be the winner. I went and grabbed a cypress wood pic and added to my library in F360 to update the look ...

 

I think it looks pretty good in a lighter color.

Now looking at on of my suppliers, they only go up to 8/4 stock, I made the legs here 10/4 which would need 12/4 rough ... gotta do some shopping around and see if I can find it thicker.

 

Also, would this be the Epifanes I am looking for? I dont want the high gloss version and this seems to be their matte finish. That is the correct one for this right?

https://www.epifanes.com/page/wood-finish-matte 

 

 

You could always laminate the 8/4 to get the thickness for the legs.  There's a few ways to hide the glue line if needed.

Epifanes is awesome for outdoor furniture.  Word to the wise though, it will be very difficult to repair/refinish in the future.

[Bushwacked]

11 hours ago, Kev said:

You could always laminate the 8/4 to get the thickness for the legs.  There's a few ways to hide the glue line if needed.

Epifanes is awesome for outdoor furniture.  Word to the wise though, it will be very difficult to repair/refinish in the future.

I would like to hear more on this laminate process and hiding glue lines ... do you have a video speaking on this in one of your builds?

Hmmm, that sounds terrible for trying to refinish a few years down the road haha. What would be some other options that that would be a nightmare to touch up later?

[Kev]

2 minutes ago, Bushwacked said:

I would like to hear more on this laminate process and hiding glue lines ... do you have a video speaking on this in one of your builds?

Hmmm, that sounds terrible for trying to refinish a few years down the road haha. What would be some other options that that would be a nightmare to touch up later?

There's a couple ways that spring to mind..

1.  After lamination (2ea 8/4 pieces), cut to 45 degrees placing that glue line right on the corner, you'll never see it

2.  Thin veneer on the glue line side.  My next bed video will show this method..  If you'll be doing this before that video, let me know and I'll share the video with you.

Finishes  really fall into 2 categories!

1.  Super durable but a PITA to touch up or refinish

2. Not as durable but, super easy to touch up/refinish.

You just have to decide where you want to live..  I really like Epifanes for the outdoor stuff but, I also haven't had to refinish anything I've used it on.

[Coop]

Marc recently did a video on past outdoor projects he built, using different finishes and how they survived. Might look it up. His take was that UV exposure was worse on finishes as a whole, than the other elements, if I recall correctly. 

[Bushwacked]

11 hours ago, Kev said:

There's a couple ways that spring to mind..

1.  After lamination (2ea 8/4 pieces), cut to 45 degrees placing that glue line right on the corner, you'll never see it

2.  Thin veneer on the glue line side.  My next bed video will show this method..  If you'll be doing this before that video, let me know and I'll share the video with you.

Finishes  really fall into 2 categories!

1.  Super durable but a PITA to touch up or refinish

2. Not as durable but, super easy to touch up/refinish.

You just have to decide where you want to live..  I really like Epifanes for the outdoor stuff but, I also haven't had to refinish anything I've used it on.

I am confused on what you mean cut to 45* from #1 ... I just cant imagine that in my head at the moment.

I did some youtubing and found this video, I think is somewhat close to what you are saying for #2?  I am in no rush really, I have until August or so before I can start on this anyways ... want them to at least lay down the slab first so I can mark everything off and make sure sizing and all that is good to go. 

 

as far as finishes ... I was thinking about it, UV would be a little lower on my list of worries as the table should be far enough under the roof  that the sun, I dont think, would have a direct line to it. Wont know until its built out and I see where the sun hits. Out house is laid out almost directly north/south so the sun goes over sideways on our house if that makes sense ... so it should provide decent shelter from the direct sun I am thinking. I am just worried more about  the crazy rains we get and water getting on the table.

At least as of now haha ... 

 

10 hours ago, Coop said:

Marc recently did a video on past outdoor projects he built, using different finishes and how they survived. Might look it up. His take was that UV exposure was worse on finishes as a whole, than the other elements, if I recall correctly. 

Ah, ok cool, I will go search through his videos and see what he has to say ... 

[Kev]

11 minutes ago, Bushwacked said:

I am confused on what you mean cut to 45* from #1 ... I just cant imagine that in my head at the moment.

I did some youtubing and found this video, I think is somewhat close to what you are saying for #2?  

I did a thin veneer on one of the legs on the big dresser ..  Around the 3:35 mark..

As for the 45, I think I found an actual offcuts from that dresser to illustrate what I'm talking about..

First picture I used a sharpie to highlight the seam.

Then I drew the 45s to show the cuts to put the seam on the very corner where it should be undetectable.

In reality, you only have to make one 45 degree cut.  The rest are straight 90 degree cuts referenced off of that first 45 degree cut.

If this is still not making sense, I can actually cut this to illustrate further..

[Bushwacked]

2 hours ago, Kev said:

I did a thin veneer on one of the legs on the big dresser ..  Around the 3:35 mark..

As for the 45, I think I found an actual offcuts from that dresser to illustrate what I'm talking about..

First picture I used a sharpie to highlight the seam.

Then I drew the 45s to show the cuts to put the seam on the very corner where it should be undetectable.

In reality, you only have to make one 45 degree cut.  The rest are straight 90 degree cuts referenced off of that first 45 degree cut.

If this is still not making sense, I can actually cut this to illustrate further..

nope that makes perfect sense now!!! Just had to see something physical to get it through my dense head 🙂

Appreciate it as always Kev!! 

[Jamie]

Late to the party here but will throw in my 2 cents,  I did some outdoor furniture chairs about 20 years ago out of redwood.  These chairs have not been maintained much if any over that time and have sat outside not protected from the elements at all.  I have power washed and stained them once in those years.  Now saying that they have greyed overtime but are showing no signs of rot. 

[Kev]

2 minutes ago, Bushwacked said:

nope that makes perfect sense now!!! Just had to see something physical to get it through my dense head 🙂

Appreciate it as always Kev!! 

Happy to help!  Always more than one way to do just about anything in woodworking!

2 minutes ago, Jamie said:

Late to the party here but will throw in my 2 cents,  I did some outdoor furniture chairs about 20 years ago out of redwood.  These chairs have not been maintained much if any over that time and have sat outside not protected from the elements at all.  I have power washed and stained them once in those years.  Now saying that they have greyed overtime but are showing no signs of rot. 

Redwood is a great outdoor material!  If it only wasn't so soft....lol

 

[Bushwacked]

Talking with the wife … I might be going quarter sawn Douglas fir. I know it’s on the softer end but great outdoor use. 
 

this project will be kicking off probably next week. 

[Jamie]

18 hours ago, Bushwacked said:

Talking with the wife … I might be going quarter sawn Douglas fir. I know it’s on the softer end but great outdoor use. 
 

this project will be kicking off probably next week. 

I built a whole house full of cabinets with qs doug fir.  Turned out awesome!  Was a pain to get it to take stain evenly tho.  One other thing with the doug fir is the slivers burn like nothing you have ever had before.  

[Bushwacked]

1 hour ago, Jamie said:

I built a whole house full of cabinets with qs doug fir.  Turned out awesome!  Was a pain to get it to take stain evenly tho.  One other thing with the doug fir is the slivers burn like nothing you have ever had before.  

Good to hear 😄

glad I won’t be staining though as that sounds horrible not taking stain evenly. 
 

oh wonderful, guess I’ll just start crying now in preparation of the splinters 🤣

[Coop]

BW, unless you have already purchased the wood, I would go with cypress. It is a pleasure to work with and I have been using it to build my Purple Martin houses and Adirondack chairs for years. 

[Bushwacked]

20 hours ago, Coop said:

BW, unless you have already purchased the wood, I would go with cypress. It is a pleasure to work with and I have been using it to build my Purple Martin houses and Adirondack chairs for years. 

the problem was I couldnt find anything that showed nice grain for the cypress ... mostly all I could find was the fancier sinker/pecky cypress and then slabs. So she never got a real good visual of what it would look like.

Douglas fir she did enjoy the nice quarter sawn/vertical grain of it.

[Bushwacked]

Looking at table legs and ideas with the wife ... would 23" wide legs be too short for a table about 40" or so wide? Trying to figure out if it would be tippy 

[Woodenskye (Bryan)]

Ci think 23” would be tippy.  If you take your 40” and did 6” as a maximum overhang on both sides that would leave you at 28”. 

[Bushwacked]

13 hours ago, Woodenskye (Bryan) said:

Ci think 23” would be tippy.  If you take your 40” and did 6” as a maximum overhang on both sides that would leave you at 28”. 

Thanks! 
 

question on breadboard ends … never done them before so they are one of a couple new challenges I wanted for this project … if my breadboard is probably coming out at around 7 1/2” wide … how deep should my tenons going into that? 

[Kev]

That's a wide BB but, not undoable..  There's a few things to think through when determining how big the tenon needs to be.  The biggest thing to think about is the depth of the mortise.  If you decide to make them 3", do you have the tooling to reach that depth?  I think that would be pushing my limits pretty good.  Now, at 6" BBs with 2" M&T, those are numbers I could comfortably hit.

I don't know that there's any magic formula to it to be honest.

Another option would be the large domino as well.  Keeping a pair of center dominos on the tight setting and all the outside ones on the loose setting would work perfectly.  Of course, not everyone has this tool in their arsenal..