Let's Talk Jointers

[Chet]

Submitted on the old forum by Kev

Just like the title says, lets talk jointers..
I'm currently looking into and considering my options.  I have a very open mind.  I do have a few requirements that I think are all reasonable..

1.  12" or larger
2.  Reasonably long beds
3.  Helical Head
4.  Stand alone unit - I don't need/want a combo.
5.  Reasonably priced - I'm looking at a 12" minimum so, I know it's expensive!

Interested in the group's thoughts on the subject.  
For the record, I currently have 2 (possibly 3) in mind so, I'm really interested in the conversation here!

Follow up posts

1) Since you just got the 15" planer, I think 12" would be a good choice. I know Felder does make just jointer, not sure about Minimax. I'm sure your looking at PM and Grizzly. Baliegh may be worth considering. I don't know about finding used, then again upgrading to HH may make it the same price as new. 3 phase and a VFD could be an option.

2) Damn!  Ok, let me toss out a couple additional items to the 5 listed above..

6.  I'm buying new 
7.  Not considering 3 phase

That's why I love this group!  They tend to think outside the box and consider things I didn't even think of!

When this discussion looks like it's nearing the end, I'll let you know what I was considering up front and what my final decision is.  As I said, my mind is open so, no decisions have been made at this point.

3) In the end it really comes down to what features are you willing to compromise on, and how much crying your willing to subject your wallet to. I will add I more thing that doesn't jive with your list. If you got a great deal on a 12" or 16" combo machine you could leave as a jointer and only change if the planer is down or needs maintenance.

4) It may be a silly item but I just can't get used to the idea of the Euro style guard on the jointers like Felder or Hammer. I just don't think I personally like or would get used to the idea of taking my hand/push pad of the work to lift it over the guard. 

5) I have actually considered this.  

6) I have actually considered this.  

7) In your years ... What is the widest piece you have actually said ... Crap I wish I had a jointer to send this through easily. Is it 12 or 16"? Or bigger? I would start from there and think if you would ever be back in that same spot again. If so, how many times... 

Also the EU guard is kinda weird...I don't think it would be a deal breaker for me though. It's a new tool and we always seem to find a way to conform to them if they are good at what they do... At least I do it seems. Now a junk tool with something quirky... Not so much haha. 

Take for example kapex ... That handle is different than any others. You still seem to love it even though that was a change.

8 ) I've certainly had some wide stuff from time to time where I wish I'd of had a wider jointer.  I usually end up on the drum sander for those particular times.  Most recently, the top on the quilting desk.  I purposely cut those boards down because my jointer wouldn't handle the widths I wanted to use.  Funny part about that project is that it's one of the rare occasions where an 8" jointer would have worked.

9) Looks of really good responses here! Looking to dive into more specifics.. So, let's dial in a couple that I'm looking at along with some numbers and perhaps give you guys some additional insight into my thought process..

1. Powermatic 1791307 Model 1285 3 HP 1-Phase 12-Inch Jointer with Helical Cutterhead - $7000.00
2. Hammer A3-41 - Helical Head - 16" - $5700.00

10) I'm kinda shocked the hammer is so much cheaper for 4 more inches ... 

Really save money and get 4" I think I'd go with that. What is putting the smaller more pricey PM in front? 

$5700 for jointer planer which everyone seems to have great things to say about... Seems like it's going to be tough to pass up

11) It's a stand alone Jointer, not the jointer/planer

12) How long is the bed on the Hammer? I know the Powermatic is 84 inches which is a foot more then I have. Having 3 - 3 1/2 feet of material on the bed before you even get to the blades is nice.

13) I think the PM has longer beds than the hammer. The longest beds are the 16" grizzly that is right about $6K to $7K with spiral head depending on model. If it was me and I had your current setup, this is how I would proceed.

1) I would do what I could to purchase the Felder versus Hammer. I think it is a different class of machine, better build quality. I would go 12" on the Felder if it was closer to my budget.
2) I would probably buy a 16" jointer from Grizzly instead of 12" PM or 16" Hammer.

14) I would love to pitch in here but the first three items of your requirements took me out of the game and the last two took me out of the park. However, I think it’s amazing that you are making this move. Good luck on your decision.

15) Awesome responses! Thank you!

@chet, The Hammer beds are a little shorter at 70" but, they have add on extensions for about $150 that extend it beyond the PM. Also, my current 6" PM has 66" beds on it.

Coop, lol.. Think of it more like spending my money and jump in the game.. It's really just a conversation about a jointer in this price range.

woodenskye, your response is really interesting! I have and like a lot of Grizz equipment but, was still surprised to see them as a legit option in this price range. Hammer and Felder are the same company, stand alone Felder version is around $8900. I'm curious about the dislike for the Hammer? I haven't made any decisions yet and usually listen very carefully to negative responses about equipment. There's always lots of positive comments and only a few negative comments. So, I tend to give a lot of weight to the "cons" instead of the shear number of "pros".

Also, for the record, I got to see the combo version of the Hammer in action in Mick's shop. The one I'm looking at is not the combo version but, the stand alone jointer version.

Any other brands out there worth legitimate consideration?

16) Kev, it's not that I dislike the hammer, it's just the weight and build quality is better and if I am spending the money then I would prefer the better machine.  Both are great machines, just comes down to my mindset. 

Check out the Bailegh 12".  It retails for $4895, has 88" beds, HH and DRO.

17) I really appreciate the honest response!  Just not sure I can justify 9k on a jointer...lol. The PM at 7k was about the top of my budget..

I honestly haven't looked at the Bailegh but, will add it to the looksie list!  I also haven't checked to see if Laguna is in the market???

18) Last time I looked I think the 12" Laguna was about $5000, but I have never seen a review, so would make me a bit weary. 

19) So is felder like PM and hammer like jet/rikon? 

I haven't heard a lot of good Baleigh reviews and some people seem to compare them to like the jet/Rikon/Laguna level of quality ... Although I've never seen one in person so who knows. 

So is having a combo system so bad? Or is it because you already have a planer and then that would make it a waste kinda having 2 planers?

20) Just to muddy up the waters here are two reviews of he 12 inch Laguna. First one is pretty extensive.

www.woodcraft.com/products/laguna-tools-12-parallelogram-jointer-with-sheartec-ii?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqurE3LWB5AIVICCtBh3BHQhEEAQYBSABEgLttPD_BwE
 

21) I would say Hammer and PM are in the same class.  Felder is a step up, but Format thats an entirely different class.  This is all my opinion. 

22) I have a planer so, don't need a combo unit.  I also have the room so, don't want a combo unit.

23) I'm biased since I have the Felder AD941. I prefer having a high quality combo unit since it is so easy to change over and as hasn't hindered my flow at all. That said, you just bought a nice planer 

I'll agree that Felder wins in a Hammer vs Felder comparison. I know it's a lot to spend on a standalone jointer for the 16" Felder but it's simply a better machine (another reason I prefer the combo, it actually saved me money since I knew I wanted a 16" jointer). Heavier duty all the way around. The guard has been mentioned a few times. I prefer the euro guard over the porkchop. Imagine for a second a porkchop guard on a 16" machine. It would get in the way as you jointed a board. I have the euro comfort guard, which is segmented and never gets in the way.

All said, my vote is for the Hammer standalone jointer for you. It's a great machine, has none of the downfalls of the Hammer combo and is a superior machine to the PM. If you want to spend more money get the Felder jointer. I think you'll never notice the difference, but it is a better unit. 

I would avoid Minimax, Laguna and Grizzly in this price range. Only Minimax or Laguna I'd buy is a bandsaw.

24) Super glad you chimed in on this thread!

So, what makes the Felder several thousand better?  I'm not asking to be snarky, I'm asking as I want the education.

25) The major differences are with the planer (combo), jointer fence and overall build quality.

The 9 series Felder have a four post planer system, the 7 series and below (to include Hammer) have a single post. The changeover process on the Felder is quick and repeatable, while the Hammer isn't nearly as good.

As stated, I'm biased... Since I have the Felder it would be hard to go backwards, but in all honesty the Hammer will last a lifetime and at half the price is a no-brainer. 

26) Appreciate the response!

So, just to compare apples to apples, same question but compare the two stand alone units.  I understand your bias and don't knock it.  Just trying to understand the cost difference between the two machines.

27) So I have no idea ... Why does the combo unit cost less $$?? To me that doesn't make much sense since you are getting 2 machine in 1 to save space as well. I would think it would be the opposite...

28) I'll try to explain this better. I paid $11,138 all in for my Felder AD941. (no taxes, but I did have to pay a bit for shipping)

I started with the idea of having a 12" or 16" jointer because I build big projects such as dining tables and countertops.

The 12" PM jointer is around 7K and the 15" PM planer is around 3K. Plus tax and shipping from most places. 
With this arrangement I would still not have 16" capability on either machine and be just over 10K plus taxes.

With the Hammer/Felder lines you do get much more bang for your buck with the combo units. 
They are essentially the same price for the stand alone jointer as the combo (give or take 10-20%)

28) Mel's reasoning is sound for his shop/situation. Same reasoning in Mick's shop. I especially appreciate the way Mel put in dollars and cents because people see that big number and overlook the fact that they're getting 2 machines.

For me, I have the room so, don't want the combo unit. I understand that switching between them isn't difficult but, I'd like to avoid that step all together.